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August 03, 2009

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Justin Kownacki

In theory, everyone WANTS to believe in equality... as long as they're not being disadvantaged. But as soon as one person has an edge over another, well, then we're no longer equal, are we? So we need to impress upon our government (or our employer, or our family) new rules that will level the playing field.

It's a slippery slope, because "equality" encompasses logical givens like freedom of speech and racial equality... but what about marriage rights? Or social services? Or health care sliding scales? At what point does the altruistic concept of "equality" run headlong into "survival of the fittest"?

Nick Pinkston

Yea, I'm with you Justin. It's a very slippery slope, but with all of such problems there's probably a pendulum effect: it swings back and forth between the extremes.

I also see "survival of the fittest" in two ways: those who can actually get there by working vs. those who can just beg our mercy and still receive the reward.

It seems Darwin rewards both the grazers and the parasites.

Chuck Davis

The fact of the matter is that people have to be given equal opportunities. It is what people chose to do with their opportunity is where the inequality lies. In a sense it is survival of the fittest. If a person can make the best of the equal opportunity given to them then they are more fit to exist in this society. What we must do as a society is give everyone an equal opportunity to become better than the rest.

Furthermore in every species we see survival of the fittest the whole reason it can exist is because everything is given the same level playing field. It can be compared to the control of an experiment. It is a variable that can be eliminated. Therefore allowing the truly fit candidates of the species to prevail and improve the species as a whole.

As human beings we have the ability to adapt better than almost every other living thing and those who lack the skills are detrimental to the overall well-being of the species. It is all about what you do with what liberties you are given

Nick Pinkston

The issue is how "opportunities" is defined. I think you're using it in the "being" way, but others would believe that "means" would better define it.

I don't think evolution works because of a level playing field though, and I'm not sure how to define that either.

Some species have split into breeds that use different systems to survive and have become genetically very different.

For instance, domestic dogs have evolved to look cute and be good companions, where as wild dogs are better at hunting and survival. This is because their niche has biased selection in this way.

I think the workers and dependents in our society could be viewed in similar terms. We're sympathetic toward their cause - even though they drag us down.

I think we'll be better off by aligning incentives so that our species as a whole can survive.

Anthony Russo

"The fact of the matter is that people have to be given equal opportunities. It is what people chose to do with their opportunity is where the inequality lies."


Not sure I totally agree with this comment, Chuck. While this can be true (and certainly is in a lot of cases), it's not always the case. There are certain segments of society that literally have no chance in a competetive world -- people grow up with parents who are not loving, not mentors, people live surrounded by senseless violence. They know nothing of a competetive world, a good education, and are literally incapable of understanding their "opportunity." They're doomed from the start.

Not sure how we fix it, or even if we can.

Nick Pinkston

Anthony, I think Chuck is taking a full "being" type of argument, while you're coming at it somewhere between there and "means". It's hard to make a clear judgment for either way.

On the one hand, I don't like incentives that aren't completely aligned with performance, however I can sympathize with people who grow up in bad circumstances who really don't have those opportunities.

I think one's outlook on life is everything in personal success, and a lot of these kids have nothing to look toward. At this point, we need to differentiate though between our feelings and results. It might not be "fair" that the kids are in this situation, however we need to do an ROI calculation before we commit resources to any program.

As far as how that'll work, you'd have to see if what you take from those who have opportunity (tax money, jobs, etc.) returns more than if the situation had been left alone. The answer could be education, mentorship, vouchers or even something as out-there as drug legalization.

I think there's a good chance in having a high enough ROI from programs that target youth to justify them. I'm still not sure what form - but that's the framework in my mind.

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