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September 01, 2009

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Allan Ecker

A zero-sum materials world is not a zero-sum world, as you´ve just explained.

For this reason, the economy is still growing and you still need markets to keep it from stagnating. I firmly believe that in the case of an economy that has NO growth, where no new inventions are created and where durable goods are used up at the same rate as they are made and energy is poured into the system at the same rate as it is used and so on, socialism is the best system.

However, this world is every bit as much a fairy tale as one where sharing is universally a bad thing, and further either one of these places would closely match my idea of hell.

Growth doesn´t just come from cutting down trees and digging up ore. If the inputs of energy and material and technology are all fixed, you have zero growth and zero-sum games. Uncork any one of those and you don´t.

Material: Yes, material resources on a finite planet are fixed. And we´re burning through them. Also they´re getting harder to dig up. At some point we may say these become fixed, and even now we´re seeing evidence that, where possible, we should re-use material rather than find new untapped sources for environmental reasons: it´s good for us to recycle, and maybe we´ll find that running on zero-sum material resources makes sense. I´m not so sure, but I´m not dogmatic on it either.

Energy: Not unlimited either, but less limited than material. Solar flux is still vastly larger than energy used. We are so far from type I it´s not even funny. Factor in the available energy in nuclear power sources (both on the uranium end and the hydrogen end of the spectrum) and energy worries aren´t the first wall we´ll hit. Some time in the future we may find it´s useful to constrain our energy usage for some reason, but I think we´re better off recognizing when scarcity is created by technology or materials, because energy scarcity, to me at least, looks more like a function of those two at the moment than anything intrinsic.

Technology: Technology is the only thing which may in fact be endless. There may be no end to the value amplification we can get from Matter and Energy. (Einstein aside these two aren´t currently the same thing-- even modern nuclear energy is a tinker toy compared to outright E=mc^2 converson.) If technology has a limit, it is very far away. And if constraining our use of energy or matter is good for us, then so be it-- I´ll support crafting laws, incentives and institutions to achieve this aim. (I will however encourage plenty of skepticism and care with said lawcraft-- social engineering is notoriously blurry and difficult to operate.) But even doing that won´t create a zero-growth economy, because technology will, perhaps even in response to said social engineering, still be growing.

So there´s my arguments that zero-growth isn´t likely or desirable-- As to capitalism functioning well in a zero-growth environment, well, I doubt it, but I also doubt zero-growth can really happen.

Nick Pinkston

Thanks for the comment Allen!

That's an interesting concept: a completely no growth world - what would everyone do? I'm not sure why socialism beats capitalism in such a system though. Are you suggesting this because of inequalities of resources, etc. that could form in this system? It seems to me that regulation need not be a dichotomy such as capitalism / socialism; I think that a federalized system where control is forced to the lowest possible level (by where externalities are best solved) would produce a system of free markets in the macro-level, but localities could run socialist systems. On a small scale, socialism (probably better just called co-ops or communes) can work great, but I'm also suscipious of social engineering - especially in a political landscape dominated by lobbyists.

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